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RemoteIsHeaven 1 days ago [-]
Is it just the act of birdwatching that rewires the brain and slows cognitive decline, so I can enjoy the same effects by looking at tiktoks of birds, while sitting on my couch eating cheetos?
Or are the hiking, breathing in fresh air, the eyes seeing natural sunlight etc critical to the effects?
So if I swapped the birdwatching with watching horses run or pigs fornicate with everything else being the same (hiking, breathing in fresh air, the eyes seeing natural sunlight etc), I would enjoy the exact same benefits the article claims birdwatching results in?
lincon127 1 days ago [-]
I think it's obvious that what slows down their dementia is that they're bothering to remember things, socializing, expressing their expertise to peers and comparing notes. Normally a retiree doesn't have that much interpersonal connection, and if they do, it's not usually that intense.
1 days ago [-]
jmull 1 days ago [-]
Probably. This is what happens when you let Big Bird fund science.
mobeets 1 days ago [-]
The claims of the actual paper are much more nuanced and not anything near how the BBC headline frames it. I think this is more a case of bad science reporting than bad science.
I would maybe argue that the vast majority of science reporting especially in large news outlets is bad science reporting since the modern media ecosystem has strong preference for sensationalism.
It's why there's so much distrust of science globally. We've cured cancer! Except we haven't, it was mouse studies. Except we have! Except not really, that drug failed it's first clinical trial. Except we have! Except that's just mechanistic reasoning not proven by any observational studies.
So then people think, wow, these scientists have no idea what they're doing and just make stuff up all the time to get attention. Which they aren't - most peer-reviewed studies include a mountain of caveats and I've rarely seen, even in large meta-analyses and Cochrane Reviews, papers that make half as strong a claim as ad-revenue obsessed news editors do with their hyperbolic headlines.
culi 1 days ago [-]
If BBC hadn't editorialized, most of us likely wouldn't have clicked it. The paper is interesting but more interesting when you read it through the lens of "does this validate the health benefits of bird-watching?" which is a perspective BBC provided
That's good science journalism imo
mobeets 24 hours ago [-]
Maybe naive but I tend to think there’s a way to attract people’s attention to good science without over-claiming. The downside of too much editorializing is that it leads some people (eg the comment I first replied to) to think the science itself must be as shallow as the headline suggests, which does everyone a disservice. In this article’s case, using words like “may” or “suggests” could have gone a long way.
insane_dreamer 1 days ago [-]
fair criticism, but science reporting is to elicit the public interest (otherwise, you could just publish a link to the paper) and that requires getting the public's interest in the first place
47282847 14 hours ago [-]
By lying?
drop_star 1 days ago [-]
Bird law in this country is not governed by reason
Melatonic 1 days ago [-]
How the Gang Defeats Alzheimers: Dialectric Bird Boogaloo
mft_ 24 hours ago [-]
Appending the ‘big’ from e.g. Big Tobacco/Pharma/Sugar to unlikely things is one of my favourite occasional jokes. I especially appreciate the double joke with Big Bird :)
> So if I swapped the birdwatching with watching horses run or pigs fornicate with everything else being the same (hiking, breathing in fresh air, the eyes seeing natural sunlight etc), I would enjoy the exact same benefits the article claims birdwatching results in?
Those activities typically don't require observation and inference. A big part of birdwatching is identifying small, fast-moving animals that exhibit specific combinations of behaviors at specific times of the year based on specific climatic conditions. That sort of rapidfire pattern matching from video and audio info is probably a big contributor to what keeps the brain sharp.
RemoteIsHeaven 1 days ago [-]
> A big part of birdwatching is identifying small, fast-moving animals that exhibit specific combinations of behaviors at specific times of the year based on specific climatic conditions
So VR birdwatching works, or no?
Remember, if VR birdwatching works, then you can now watch small, fast-moving animals that exhibit specific combinations of behaviors at any time of the year from the comfort of your couch and thus, the benefits of birdwatching can be enjoyed by a much larger population.
kixiQu 1 days ago [-]
Are you saying that the population that has access to virtual reality hardware is "much larger" than the population that has access to going outside?
Dylan16807 14 hours ago [-]
Not just outside but to places with sufficient interesting birds. If that costs a gallon of gas, or you have limited mobility, or limited time to spend getting to the right spot, or limited free time while the sun is up in certain months... yeah I could believe that's actually more restrictive for a lot of people than getting 5 years of use out of a VR headset at $70 per year.
kixiQu 5 hours ago [-]
Convincing yourself that your local birds aren't sufficiently interesting is a great way to rationalize avoiding getting into birding. (Source: I am trying to learn to distinguish all the pigeons that constitute most of the bird population near me. They're great.)
And it is a classic for folks with limited mobility:
There's a reason why it has a reputation as a great retiree hobby - it's "go sit on a bench and pay attention" not "first, purchase a mountain bike of adequate spec...".
Dylan16807 3 hours ago [-]
I think going to benches is fine but takes non-negligible effort. As for looking out my window from home... Maybe? It really doesn't seem like there are enough birds visible to make that worth it.
The person in that article saw ten species in two months? This doesn't sound like a situation where your activity is listed as "birdwatching", it sounds like you spend a minute on it every once in a while.
And if I consider binoculars and a feeder, that's on the same price tier as VR.
wenderen 1 days ago [-]
Knock yourself out, if you prefer the VR version
clickety_clack 1 days ago [-]
In real life, you have to navigate nature as well.
unethical_ban 1 days ago [-]
It's probably better than nothing. From a human and nature perspective, you're not "touching grass". You aren't waiting with anticipation, wonder if you'll see something or what you'll find. You aren't locked in 100% to the experience. I don't think it would be the same.
awesome_dude 1 days ago [-]
I think one of the drawbacks of VR birdwatching is that you are served the bird in focus, in frame, almost immediately - there's no search, there's no WTF is making that noise?
Some parts of birdwatching could be Virtual - watching a feeder somewhere (anywhere) waiting for birds to come in and watch what they do - or watching different trees/plants at different points in the year attracting different birds exhibiting different behaviours (eg. I have a love of seeing Tui[NZ] when Taiwanese Cherry or Kowhai are in flower, they gather in the tree at different times of the day when the nectar is at its peak, there are fights for dominance between the birds, there's a racket as they all feast, then boom, as quickly as they arrive they're gone again, off to the next tree)
sib 1 days ago [-]
We just started doing meaningful bird photography (as opposed to true birdwatching) last year and I agree with you.
The couple of times we've gone with guides who are serious birdwatchers, it is impressive to watch their abilities in this area of multimodal species identification (and male/female/adult/juvenile) in challenging visual and audio environments (and recall of species names in Latin, English, and Spanish).
Meanwhile I'm out there with my camera like "Hey, look at that beautiful red+blue bird!" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
wenderen 1 days ago [-]
I've been in the hobby for a little over 5 years and the gulf between me when I began and me now is huge. And then I look at people like the experienced guides you mentioned and it's night and day again!
They have access to the same information as the rest of us (sight, sound, general awareness of season and habitat) but their inference is so amazingly fast and accurate.
wil421 1 days ago [-]
I’m casually in the hobby but I’ve been able to identify way more birds than I thought I could. Started with a small bird feeder at my house. Now, when I go deer hunting I turn on the Merlin Bird ID app and try to find what it’s hearing.
The bird feeder attracted way to many mice and rats. I wish I didn’t have to take it down.
jamiek88 22 hours ago [-]
Surely there’s a way of vermin proofing considering the birds can fly? I’ve been thinking of a bird feeder, I’ve started with a hummingbird one and was thinking about unwanted creatures at the seed feeder if I get one but i naively assumed this would be a solved problem lol
Melatonic 1 days ago [-]
Probably a social aspect as well
sdenton4 1 days ago [-]
I think you misunderstand what's involved in birdwatching. It's not just looking, but searching, and using often very fine details to tell different species apart.
sublinear 1 days ago [-]
Comments like the one you're responding to is why I always collapse the top comment on any HN frontpage story. It wasn't always like this, but it's a reflex of mine at this point.
jamiek88 22 hours ago [-]
I’ve started to do that too. Weird. Def feels like a change happened. But then famously people have been saying this since like the second week of HN being online lol
hansonkd 1 days ago [-]
Those other things aren’t activities people are currently doing. Bird watching is a social activity with clubs you can join right now.
yason 1 days ago [-]
We don't go birdwatching because we read somewhere that birdwatching is good for you.
We want to know what it is in birdwatching that registers as beneficial because if the factor(s) are distinct and isolated then the same benefits can be scaled outside of birdwatching.
And if you just went birdwatching because they said so, you wouldn't know why it might be beneficial to you. Or maybe there's a factor that wasn't identified separately and birdwatching itself doesn't improve your cognitive capabilities while, for many others, it supposedly does.
You would want to know you're getting benefits from whatever you decide to do if you're doing it in order to gain those benefits.
joshuahedlund 1 days ago [-]
As a birdwatcher I strongly expect the benefit is in the identification experience and agree with this sibling comment:
> A big part of birdwatching is identifying small, fast-moving animals that exhibit specific combinations of behaviors at specific times of the year based on specific climatic conditions. That sort of rapidfire pattern matching from video and audio info is probably a big contributor to what keeps the brain sharp.
It takes time and experience to build up your identification skills but it’s really rewarding and exciting and modern tech makes it easier than ever to learn
saalweachter 1 days ago [-]
I mean, I would sign up for a study where I am randomly assigned a hobby to pursue for the next 20 years while researchers study my health outcomes.
dylan604 1 days ago [-]
If you find that sign up form, would you kindly post it here. I'd be interested too, but my googl-fu isn't very good apparently. The way the current administration is berating science funding, you'd think this would be something that is actually happening.
1 days ago [-]
Frieren 1 days ago [-]
> so I can enjoy the same effects by looking at tiktoks of birds,
Birdwatching includes looking at top trees searching for birds. Looking at complex fractal-like accumulations of branches and leaves. Also following sounds and identifying their source. The brain was designed for this task.
A screen does not seem a substituted for such a incredible rich experience. Screens are a flat low-resolution, low fidelity view of reality. And no brain has evolved to watch at them. It can actually be quite tiresome to look at screens all day, as so many things about them go against how our eyes and brains work.
ssl-3 1 days ago [-]
My cat's brain sure does seem to be stimulated by birdwatching on a screen. He tries to kill them, then walks behind the screen and has a WTF moment, and returns to the front to try to kill them again.
It's very entertaining for me, but I don't do it to him very often lest he become miswired.
dpoloncsak 1 days ago [-]
Isn't this counter to the idea that gaming can also slow cognitive decline for similar reasons?
The average CounterStrike player, for example, is scanning complex structures trying to identify an enemy, listening to sounds and trying to follow the source...etc. Why would the screen get in the way in one case but not the other?
makeitdouble 1 days ago [-]
Parent's point is IMHO that birdwatching involves a lot more attention, skill and experience than just plainly looking at a screen.
As sister comments point out, this could be reproduced with a lot more technology (VR with high precision controllers ?), which could bring it on par with playing Counter Strike in some ways perhaps ?
To expand on bird watching, people usually don't mindlessly choose a wood cabin and just sit there. They'll know which bird should be where depending on the season, where they tend to hide depending on the time of the day, their bird calls etc. and eventually trek to wherever the birds will be. It's also not so far from fishing.
dpoloncsak 1 days ago [-]
Maybe I misunderstood, or took their argument too literally. I understood it to be damning screens specifically.
Seems like we're all generally in agreement, then. Probably nothing to do with the literal act of seeing birds, but all of the cognitive work that goes into it. Birdwatching is just an easy-to-digest hobby that demands the right sorts of cognitive activity. This can be akin to a 'Bird Spotting: the Video-game' with whatever flavor and skin, be it a shooter or racing sim or sports game.... but does not seem to cross over into 'TikTok' style less-cognitive activities behind a screen
I come from the world of live action VR and not 3D generated, so my mind instantly went to what it would take to make a VR live action experience of finding the actual birds in an actual location possible. The image collection required to allow for a zoomed in through binocs view enough detail would be something "fun" to assemble. Everything was designed around wide angle lenses a la GoPros because of form factor which means zooming would be atrocious. Designing something with long lenses would result in a camera rig that would be insanely impractical. Now, using a set of sensors like the Rubin Observatory might might make this feasible. Hmmm...
qingcharles 1 days ago [-]
Birds aren't real, anyway.
bodhi_mind 9 hours ago [-]
Everything technically requires, or reinforces current wiring in the brain. So the question is, what loops do you want to change?
seizethecheese 1 days ago [-]
Valid criticism, but I recall the study showing cab drivers have the lowest incidence of dementia among all professions, and I thing perhaps there could be something about activating the visual system in 3d space that is uniquely good.
RemoteIsHeaven 1 days ago [-]
Is it possible that if you have dementia, you cannot (or not allowed) sustain yourself to be a cab driver?
In other words, if its shown that people who eat jawbreakers have good teeth, is it possible that the underlying reason for it is you simply cannot eat jawbreakers with dentures?
cryzinger 1 days ago [-]
The supposed link is that being a successful cab driver requires you to memorize a lot of street names and layouts, and if you do that for long enough it makes your hippocampus huge and beefy:
> According to a small brain-imaging study published in 2000, London cab drivers had unusually large hippocampi. This part of the brain also happens to degrade in people with Alzheimer’s disease.
[...]
> Interestingly, taxi drivers are not known for stellar health outcomes, Jena says. They typically have higher mortality rates compared with people in other occupations, making their very low Alzheimer’s rates especially remarkable. The researchers wondered if taxi drivers experience other factors that protect them against dementia more generally. In that case, the researchers would expect cab and ambulance drivers to be similarly protected from other types of dementia as well. But their analysis showed these drivers had ordinary rates of vascular dementia, which does not involve the hippocampus.
> And the very low incidence of Alzheimer’s disease did not manifest among drivers of other modes of transportation, which involve “fewer navigational demands.” Another brain-imaging study of long-time London bus drivers found that they do not have enlarged hippocampi. Scientists suspect that this is because “bus drivers are driving predetermined routes,” says Jena. “It’s not this on-the-fly navigational memory that taxi drivers are required to possess.” He and his colleagues found that pilots and ship captains also exhibited typical rates of Alzheimer’s mortality.
Birds aren't real and obviously just advanced drones designed to spy on us. Obviously we must then only send the most elite and wise of us to monitor them back.
Birdwatching is basically elderly James Bond. Who knows what undercover mysteries grandma and grandpa are secretly discovering
jcynix 1 days ago [-]
From the original article:
"The extensive training required to achieve domain-specific expertise modifies the brain. Changes in brain structure have been found in domains including music, athletics, and navigation. Training also alters brain activity."
macintux 23 hours ago [-]
Makes me wonder whether the use of AI to substitute for that extensive training is going to leave anyone not suffering from dementia.
srean 1 days ago [-]
For swift colorful pigs that flit in and out of thick bushes making complex yet signature grunting sounds, yes, I think that would work.
EGreg 1 days ago [-]
The mindset that every hacker and tinkerer has. Trying to take the system apart and decouple it.
Meanwhile most people just do the traditional thing
RemoteIsHeaven 1 days ago [-]
I won't argue it's a hacker mindset - it's about learning what matters and what's accidental.
If a article headlines saying "People who wake up early live 20 years longer than people who sleep in", and then it turns out it wasn't the act of waking up early at all, rather, early risers then went out for a run or a swim and people who slept in but did the same actually lived even longer than those early risers, it's important to know that.
somenameforme 1 days ago [-]
Or for one of my favorites, 'a glass of wine a day is healthy' because of antioxidants... or something. Except it isn't, at all. But rather as people's health deteriorates to a sufficient degree they tend to stop drinking (even if not consciously because of their own health), and so when you study light drinkers versus non-drinkers, there was enough of an undetected bias in there to make it seem that drinkers were, on average, healthier. It's easy to see echoes of that possibility in near to any study, especially observational.
Swizec 1 days ago [-]
> 'a glass of wine a day is healthy' because of antioxidants... or something. Except it isn't, at all
Also, in America, the kind of people who have a glass of wine a day (but not more) strongly correlate with those who can afford healthcare.
Similar for mediterranean diets. Turns out it’s the universal healthcare available in all the mediterranean countries both on the european and the african sides.
RemoteIsHeaven 1 days ago [-]
Oh this is such a nice comment. It's like saying People who live on the 5th floor are healthier than those on the ground.
Of course, the root cause being people who are unfit, sick or elderly cannot literally make it up a flight of stairs.
but if people aren't paying attention, like the vast majority of population dont, you'll suddenly have an explosion of condos that start from the 5th floor with the first 4 floors turned into something else.
and all of them have lifts!
ghosty141 1 days ago [-]
> Or for one of my favorites, 'a glass of wine a day is healthy'
There are a few reasons why this is false, my favorite one is, they didn't control for alcoholics who stopped drinking and thus reported as non-drinkers. So the group of completely sober ones had people with liver damage etc. while those with only moderate drinkers had barely any heavy-drinkers in it.
mym1990 1 days ago [-]
I feel like its more just that correlation is not causation, a widely popular idea outside of hackers and tinkerers.
qurren 1 days ago [-]
I'd also be interested to know what the speed of cognitive decline is OUTSDE the times that you are <birdwatching/hiking/whatever is claimed to cognitive decline>.
Like, if you have a baseline cognitive decline of 25% in 10 years, and you instead spend 2 of those 10 years (total time spent) watching birds to go from 25% to 20% reduction in cognitive decline, you haven't really slowed your cognitive decline, you've just effectively paused it during the time you were watching birds.
dylan604 1 days ago [-]
Is that really how cognitive decline works?
insane_dreamer 1 days ago [-]
so. many. control. groups.
FinnLobsien 1 days ago [-]
I believe that we'll see a lot of "x is good for your brain" news (with X just being any activity that doesn't involve a screen), now that attention spans are so short and everyone feels like their brain isn't the same anymore.
The same way we got gyms when people realized physical inactivity is super unhealthy.
lelandfe 1 days ago [-]
Engaging with Torment Nexus Less Found to Lower Stress, Increase Life Expectancy
winrid 1 days ago [-]
These Men Married Their Torment Nexus, See How
cpufry 1 days ago [-]
[dead]
Lambdanaut 1 days ago [-]
3 wild and wacky facts your doctor doesn't want you to know about your torment nexus
tapland 1 days ago [-]
Stopping and looking at some birds and what they're doing is really relaxing. Be it pigeons, seaguls looking for fries or if lucky a crow or rook.
The corvids looking back wondering what you're doing and they'll communicate back too.
I think becoming a person who would stop and do that, or go birdwatch in general, is probably the important part.
jijijijij 1 days ago [-]
Mean sure, but doing just that misses the learning and specific attention part. Going from "bird" to species, learning about morphological, vocal differences is going beyond "being a little more active and interested in your surroundings". It's really engaging every sensory and cognitive system in concert.
That said, collecting plants or beetles is probably equally beneficial. Geocaching comes to mind too.
Although, I wonder if looking up may contribute, given old people tend deform and bend forward with age. Could affect blood or lymphatic circulation.
malfist 1 days ago [-]
What if we took the idea of two minutes of hate session from the dystopian 1984 and made it available all the time. Everyone could carry in their pocket their own personal two minutes of hate that they can have any time they want as often as they want. Orwell never dreamed so high
void-sky 1 days ago [-]
We all have that already, it's called smartphone sadly.
It works with whatever political direction you lean on, which stance you have on two or more genders, which religion you love or hate, which gaming platform you prefer, how old you are and many more "divide and conquer"-topics.
It'll be difficult to replace because it's so effective already...
pohl 1 days ago [-]
Might want to take up bird watching: an early indicator of cognitive decline is the loss of an ability to pick up on subtext.
triceratops 1 days ago [-]
> We all have that already, it's called smartphone sadly.
That's what the person you responded to was saying.
1 days ago [-]
kurthr 1 days ago [-]
What percentage of people are neither of the simple common XY nor XX chromosomes?
It's about as many people as there are with red hair. If you don't include chimerics it's about 0.25-1.7%, if you do include twin chimerics it's 8%, not including mothers micro-chimerism.
Probably shouldn't be having those Kenyans (Kalenjin) competing in marathons either. Completely unfair advantage.
All models are wrong, some are useful.
bethekidyouwant 1 days ago [-]
At first, I thought this was culture war bait and then I read the Wikipedia article and it is.
cowlevel 1 days ago [-]
It is culture war bait
busssard 1 days ago [-]
what?
Gravityloss 1 days ago [-]
The Hate Amplifier
Cthulhu_ 1 days ago [-]
Twitter? Everyone gets a soapbox to rant on.
arethuza 1 days ago [-]
I suspect we'll find out that "programming is good for your brain" as well...
NB I'm 61 and recently started developing something almost entirely for the mental workout if provides
Edit: I also wanted to use HTMX so I could become CEO one day
FinnLobsien 1 days ago [-]
That's great! I think anything that's not passively consuming a screen will be known as "good for your brain", the same way that regular food has become known as "health food".
Eschewing eating ultraprocessed, factory-made food is now seen as a deliberate health choice, even though it used to be the default. I think the same is happening with the brain.
Reading a book is now seen as some erudite choice. Having a hobby like knitting, birdwatching, etc. will be some kind of "good for your brain" activity. Things that used to be the only option are now "healthy choices".
cowlevel 1 days ago [-]
I think you can just become CEO of HTMX, don't have to actually use it
arethuza 1 days ago [-]
Well, I'm old fashioned about these things...
pdpi 1 days ago [-]
Funnily enough, my bird watching does in fact involve a screen — the electronic viewfinder on my camera[0].
Jokes aside, there is a very definite difference in how my brain "feels" when I'm walking around, camera in hand, looking for things to photograph. It's like I'm in a different "cognitive mode", for the lack of a better term. It's not just about being present and in the moment, but about seeing the world around you from a different perspective.
multiple times in the last few months I've done a thing and then a week after having done it, felt like it was something I'd have to be crazy to attempt, even though I did it and it went fine and it wasn't even that wacky. Because you get in a different mindset when you're actually doing something than when you're sitting at home wasting time on RuneScape*
* probably one of the less bad things you can do on a screen, since it predates the everything-for-attention era
delecti 23 hours ago [-]
RuneScape is certainly far from the very worst of the internet, but it's still wise to be wary of Skinner boxes. Of course I don't follow that advice either.
cowlevel 15 hours ago [-]
It's a video game, so it's a skinner box by definition, but at least it's one designed for actual enjoyment more than for revenue.
snarf21 1 days ago [-]
I think it is slightly different than that. I think it is more about active brain activity versus passive. Learning how to play Riichi Mahjong (e.g.) would likely show a similar effect. A lot of people push brain puzzles as a tool against dementia, etc. but it is only helpful when learning a new puzzle type. Once you over learn it, our innate pattern matching takes over and you start playing on auto-pilot, it stops "rewiring" your brain. Just sitting on the couch binging streaming or swiping through shorts is likely to atrophy your brain.
Obviously being out in nature has other mental health benefits. The key thing is to keep learning and stay curious. Drive to some new nearby town on a weekend and learn about its history. Learn a new hobby like full f-stop photography or learn how to bake or cook (learn all four base sauces). Take up board games and explore all the different kinds of experiences they provide today.
Valakas_ 14 hours ago [-]
"Doing X is good for your brain/health."
Where 'X' is almost anything that humans evolved to do in hunter gatherer nomadic tribal groups.
In other news, sky is blue.
dominotw 1 days ago [-]
> with X just being any activity that doesn't involve a screen
and done by top 1 percent of the world
ekhadivar 1 days ago [-]
[flagged]
throwaway2037 1 days ago [-]
> now that attention spans are so short
Oh please, this is Internet nonsense. Google tells me:
> Psychologists and neuroscientists find no structural decline in the human brain's ability to focus. Sustained attention limits remain largely unchanged.
WelkinFolk 1 days ago [-]
I and pretty much everyone I know has repeatedly mentioned how difficult of a time they're having reading books, code (software eng. friends), or even watching the first half of a movie without feeling the need to open their phones and scrolling Instagram.
greesil 1 days ago [-]
The parent comment may be a joke, but it's unclear if it is. This makes it possibly the best kind of joke.
lurking_swe 1 days ago [-]
then I suppose you and everyone you know has basically broken their brain with toxic social media. Or similar?
my spouse and I (30s) had no problem sitting through the new Spider-Man movie without opening up our phones.
WelkinFolk 18 hours ago [-]
Yep, I would say social media, especially in us Gen Zs, has made us more cynical and worried about the state of the world, apart from the obvious attention span problems.
We live in India, so for example, the rise of online (and offline) hatred towards us has definitely had an impact.
moi2388 1 days ago [-]
How many of these people before simply paused the movie to get a snack or converse a bit?
WelkinFolk 18 hours ago [-]
I don't think that's the same as having the compulsion to be online and having very little interest in long time-span activities.
tomaytotomato 1 days ago [-]
Just a bit of anecdata (observer bias).
A lot of, "birdwatchers" I see travelling to remote parts of Scotland and other places in the UK are generally wealthy retirees, with nice kit (Rab clothing, telephoto lenses, VW campervans).
Cognitive decline is shown to impact disproportionately on less wealthy people. So is there a trend with economic wealth and outdoor hobbies like birdwatching? I'd hazard a yes.
On a side note, the Merlin bird ID app from Cornell University is great.
cloudbonsai 1 days ago [-]
For what it’s worth, this article cites a longitudinal study done by German researchers.
They basically installed a bunch of bird feeders outside nursing homes to see if watching birds improves the health of the elderly people. The researchers concluded that it did:
Nursing home staff were the first to see the difference the birds made. "For weeks, they haven't seen a smile on [a resident's] face, and then they see the smile," Kals says.
Some of the memory and concentration improvements are evident after just three to four weeks, Kals says.
It seems that they used the following bird feeder in their study:
That sounds a bit like "enrichment" for pets. We all go a little nutso without it.
My apartment has a great view on nature. I see the sunrises and the sunsets, swallows racing across the evening sky, a chestnut's whole cycle, and all that lives in my balcony garden.
I cannot overstate how much it does for my happiness. I love the morning routine of caring for my garden. I love to watch things grow and seasons change.
I think our caveman brains need this sort of thing.
dan-robertson 1 days ago [-]
You have quite a biased sample because most people are not going to suffer going to remote parts of Scotland to look for birds, so you are only seeing the more devoted birdwatchers.
Birdwatching can still be enjoyed in most places without needing to travel far. Birds are less active in bad weather so you don’t need expensive outdoor gear, and in many places there will be freely accessible nature reserves with hides in which one can sit in shelter to watch birds.
The highest quality glass is going to get pretty expensive (camera lenses can get to the region of $20k; binoculars $4k or so) but there are also much cheaper options and often these can be quite reasonable: you don’t need to take photos of birds; a superzoom point-and-shoot can work great; more expensive binoculars make a bigger difference in low light and if you’re young (older people’s pupils won’t dilate as much so bigger objectives at a lower magnification won’t be a huge help).
I feel like mostly you’re observing that rich people spend lots of money on their hobbies and not that opening your eyes to look at birds is some expensive exclusionary activity.
72deluxe 1 days ago [-]
Even better, older Nikon DSLRs are now cheap with many F-mount lenses being incredibly cheap versus buying new mirrorless gear and lenses.
M43 systems are also excellent for bird watching given the 2x crop factor, and diminutive size of lenses verses larger sensors. Older M43 camera bodies are incredibly cheap versus new equipment. M43 combined with modern LLM-based denoisers means that even low-light photos with higher ISO really can end up looking incredibly good.
No need to go far or spend a lot of money.
arethuza 1 days ago [-]
I have a Nikon P1000 while it doesn't have the best image quality does make up for it in having a truly remarkable zoom: 24-3000mm. Just the thing for taking pictures of birds and then working out what they actually are at my leisure.
eichin 22 hours ago [-]
Same - it gets the ludicrous reach by having a small sensor (and OK but not miraculous lenses) but it turns out that most birdwatching is done in bright sunlight, which makes up for the optical limitations. (I also find it's easier to look for birds naked-eye first - even with mild corrective lenses, vastly more field of view and more effective motion-detecting reflexes - rather than trying to scan with the tiny field of view of the camera. But part of that was noticing the feeling of "levelling up" when I first started bird watching specifically :-)
macintux 23 hours ago [-]
Goodwill’s online auction site, shopgoodwill.com, has opened my eyes to how much people appreciate Nikon gear. Nikon pro film cameras sell for stupid amounts of money.
HelloMcFly 1 days ago [-]
Birdwatching is truly one of the cheapest possible hobbies you can have. Yes, you can make it expensive if you're committed to photographing them and traveling to remote locations to find "life list" birds, but that's not the vast majority of hobbyists.
Myrmornis 1 days ago [-]
Pretty much agree. Binoculars are essential though, unless you really just want to watch geese and herons and things. And for binoculars you do want to spend a few hundred dollars at least if you can. It really transforms things when you can start watching/identifying the small birds.
derwiki 1 days ago [-]
IIRC birding is like a 130bn/year industry in the US
nunez 24 hours ago [-]
It is easy to spend serious coin on camping/backcountry, but you don't really need to buy anything to watch birds. Just your eyes and Merlin if you're cool with using your phone or your region's bird guide if you're not. If you want to make a thing of it, then, yeah, get nice binoculars with good lenses.
Something I learned from I-forget-where: if you hear an interesting bird call, close your eyes, look up and point your nose to the source of the sound. Open your eyes, and, surprise, it's probably a Northern Cardinal, Mockingbird or some kind of thrush! lol
flexagoon 1 days ago [-]
> On a side note, the Merlin bird ID app from Cornell University is great.
Do you know how it compares to iNaturalist? I'm not a birdwatcher, but I have iNat on my phone and sometimes use it to identify birds, and it seems to do a great job.
t_mahmood 1 days ago [-]
I have tried both. Merlin is best for bird watching. It does not ask to upload any data. Just start the recording, it listens and let me know what is the bird is. Done. It only uploads, IF I want it upload.
bluebarbet 1 days ago [-]
A FOSS alternative is WhoBird, available on F-Droid and pretty good.
t_mahmood 1 days ago [-]
I tried that too, but it wasn't very good.
Myrmornis 1 days ago [-]
No comparison when it comes to sound. Try Merlin's abilities to identify bird sounds if you haven't yet.
eichin 22 hours ago [-]
https://www.birds.cornell.edu/home/the-magic-of-merlin/ for background, but I've always been floored by how well "make spectrogram plots and then use image recognition techniques on them" works, it feels like something you'd invent as a technobabble special effect in a scifi movie :-)
Myrmornis 18 hours ago [-]
Right! Do you know how well the problem of multiple overlapping vovalizations has been solved? But anywway yes it's fantastic, and really cool that the models (Bird Packs to download on a phone) are becoming available for many more places around the world. I had been wanting to try it on South American birds for years and finally got the chance this year in southeastern Brazil and it was especially amazing in a place where I can place way fewer of the vocalizations.
hackersnooze1 1 days ago [-]
iNaturalist/Seek only does photos doesnt it? Merlin can do sounds which is much much more useful for birds.
Myrmornis 1 days ago [-]
I'd really say the opposite - birdwatching cuts across socioeconomic classes surprisingly well in the UK. At least the subarea of bitding which is focused on rare birds.
robotmay 1 days ago [-]
Yeah some people focus too much on the people rocking about with Swarovski spotting scopes. I’ve met teenagers down my local reserve who were spending their school lunch break watching the birds. Bird watching is essentially free, providing that we don’t manage to destroy what little is left of our wildlife in this country and limit it only to reserves. Serviceable binoculars can be had on the cheap too. It’s a very accessible hobby.
> "Her team's findings have prompted German health insurance companies – who, among others, initially funded the research project – to invest in setting up bird feeders and viewing areas in more than 400 nursing homes across Bavaria. "It was so effective, it just economised money," Kals says."
Perhaps we need to provide opportunities for less well off people to access nature? It might have a positive cost-benefit. And design care homes around gardens? 'forest bathing' is apparently often recommended in Japan based on studies of blood pressure and other physical indicators.
Munlochy: if you ever saw a geezer wearing an ex-army parka, builders safety boots with Opticron bins it might have been me. I don't get up there often enough to warrant the pricey stuff.
Cthulhu_ 1 days ago [-]
I'd say a lot of activities like this can be done for cheap or free. Taking an elderly person to the park is free, it just costs time. Binoculars are ubiquitous, and bird books are a dime a dozen in your local charity shop.
The critical thing is that these people need a hand to get out of the house or do any kind of activity. And I think that's partially behind a lot of ailments that affect the elderly, they don't go out, don't get physically, mentally or sensorily stimulated enough so they atrophy in all those areas. On top of age related conditions like senility, parkinsons, altzheimer's, etc of course.
judge2020 1 days ago [-]
Not sure, but this is definitely a thing - the "a single glass of red wine a day is good for you" claim is pretty likely more about how people who can afford daily wine are probably wealthier people with better access to healthcare, not that any amount of daily ethanol intake has a therapeutic effect. https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamainternalmedicine/fullar...
hlynurd 1 days ago [-]
Did they adjust for demographics?
trollbridge 1 days ago [-]
Yes. The study was from a uniform sample of people and then they installed bird feeders.
ML0037 1 days ago [-]
This article just explained the behaviour I’ve been seeing in my grandfather. He has dementia and used to hunt wild boar (very common in central Italy), but he knew the local wildlife well. Since developing dementia, for obvious reasons, he unfortunately hasn’t been the same. But a group of doves has nested on the gazebo on his terrace, and every year they come back (either them or their offspring). He watches them all day, giving them food and water and following every stage of their growth. It’s beautiful to see nature indirectly helping humans who, let’s be honest, at least in his case, hadn’t done much good for nature.
app13 1 days ago [-]
I know this is absolutely not the point, but I wanted to touch on the "hunting = bad for nature" idea.
All animals die, and dying from a clean rifle shot is preferable to 99.9% of the ways animals will die in the wild.
Regulations like bag limits and license lotteries prevent over-hunting, and in many situations (like the wild boars in Italy) hunting is an ecologically positive activity, as it reduces populations that would otherwise explode and destroy its own ecosystem.
Roland303 1 days ago [-]
were still hunter/gatherers, watching nature and learning its cycles, bending it toward a greater good is all our default state, we are the shapers of earth its our role here.
ShadowOfThePit 1 days ago [-]
Yea, useful info.
But you said it yourself, that's not the point. So why talk about it up at all?
Like, OP could have skipped that tidbit of backstory, but there's no harm done in including it. While you could have skipped this entire reply, which pushes (your/an) idea and a specific view of the world.
And yea, I could have skipped mine too. But... that's not the point, lol.
therein 1 days ago [-]
I enjoyed his backstory. We all could have also just not replied and upvoted the post but here we are passing information back and forth and finding joy in it in the process.
rurp 1 days ago [-]
Bird watching is something that my younger self would have never ever believed would be appealing, but it's actually really enjoyable! Getting out and exploring the natural world is great and I highly recommend it, but even for people without the opportunity or inclination to get out there birding is still extremely accessible.
Everyone can see birds around their home or work. Getting started can be as simple as noticing which birds you see regularly and figuring out what kind they are, and how the males and females differ in appearance (or don't). Usually males are the prettier more colorful ones, which is an effective signal for fitness.
Common birds will be easy to identify. Figuring out unusual birds or behaviors can turn into quite the detective project.
From there you can start to recognize calls and behavioral patterns. Once you learn a little bit in those areas it can be like seeing in another dimension. It's neat to hear a particular call and immediately know that there is a hawk in a nearby tree, or a cat behind a car.
grendelt 1 days ago [-]
I'm into ham radio which, as a hobby, skews to an older demographic. Does just having a stimulating hobby actually slow decline?
Most of the fun of ham radio is learning - it never stops, there's always something else to discover. I'd guess that it's the learning, searching, and connections you make that provide the benefits. Unless being in nature is a requirement, but then you have plenty of retirees that go RVing - do they experience the same benefits? I doubt that's as intellectually stimulating as birding or radio. Maybe.
rustyhancock 1 days ago [-]
Yes of course, anything the requires skills you don't otherwise use. In particular continuous learning is very helpful.
The challenge however is, is it that those who engage in such hobbies have decline slowed. Or are they able to engage in those hobbies due to not declining.
It's not possible to answer clearly without some randomisation and control which is basically impossible.
Still, it's reasonable inference that hobbies and work maintain cognitive capabilities.
saimiam 1 days ago [-]
Maybe by comparing the comparative cognitive of twins, one of whom has a hobby and the other doesn’t?
rustyhancock 1 days ago [-]
It'll definitely be a nice data point.
It seems also just enough to say supporting people to have a hobby if they're at risk of dementia and don't have one is important to meeting their social and health needs.
I might be being too cynical.
I wonder if there is some funding arguments, I.e. if it's for their health and insurer may fund it.
If it's for their social/cultural and general wellbeing it might be out of their remit somewhat.
bmacho 1 days ago [-]
> > The challenge however is, is it that those who engage in such hobbies have decline slowed. Or are they able to engage in those hobbies due to not declining.
> Maybe by comparing the comparative cognitive of twins, one of whom has a hobby and the other doesn’t?
I don't see how that would help in this case?
Cthulhu_ 1 days ago [-]
I think going out into nature adds more physical factors (ham radio and video games are both physically pretty passive hobbies) and more sensory input, which gut feeling says are overall better.
But generally speaking, hobbies are good. That said, I wonder why video games don't seem to be more popular as post-retirement hobbies.
geoffeg 1 days ago [-]
Ham radio does have a lot of outdoor activities. Parks on the Air, Summits on the Air, and to some extent, field day. Some people just operate from their car, others do full day hikes to the spot they setup at.
_whiteCaps_ 1 days ago [-]
I do a 5 day trip in the alpine for SOTA every year. Getting to 6+ point summits in BC is tough to do.
macintux 23 hours ago [-]
Video games that would involve that level of sensory engagement also generally require a level of hand-eye coordination that’s tough to achieve at that age, or at least that’s my completely uneducated guess.
> I wonder why video games don't seem to be more popular as post-retirement hobbies.
I think it's a generational thing. Video games were fully entrenched as part of culture starting late gen x/early millennial. I expect to see elder gaming being a thing in the years to come.
jamiek88 21 hours ago [-]
We’re nearly there a lot of my gaming crew are older then me, some now 60 with no signs of ever stopping playing. Will be interesting if that makes a difference when we are 75+
mkli555 1 days ago [-]
You can also enjoy ham radio outdoors through SOTA (Summits On The Air). Going on a long hike while carrying 10 kg of radio equipment, setting up your station at the summit, and making contacts with other operators is a physically demanding but incredibly rewarding activity.
7952 1 days ago [-]
I think some hobbies tap into innate abilities more than others. And those tend to show more perceptible and immediate progress and so are more likely to become a regular habit. As a human you already have a facility for recognising things in nature, it is how humans can find food and detect threats. Where as other abilities (like playing a violin) are far less innate.
dyauspitr 1 days ago [-]
For someone that knows nothing about ham radios can you give me a taste for what you mean by requires continuous learning from a naive perspective? It seems like any other radio technology that has not changed in decades.
cmrx64 1 days ago [-]
I’m an avid but amateur birdwatcher since some mental health struggles some years ago. I would go on long walks and eventually all these damn birds punctured my rumination and I tried making bird noises and they made bird noises back (I later learned these were Grackles, and they had arrived as a group to one of their preferred haunts). Once I started paying attention and interacting with more birds I got hooked.
It really is a very different cognitive mode. And when LLMs later came out I took my birdwatching-stance into it, which felt like a natural way to encounter some new entities.
I find it easy to believe that birdwatching is fairly distinctive in how it organizes the brain. Many sibling comments were wondering “is it the bird watching or is it an isolatable factor.” Bird watching is an extremely distinctive sensory integration, prediction, classification, etc task with lots of subproblems yes but also binding them in an irreducible way with agency detection (a vital part of cognition that modern environments are impoverished of) and attention.
bob778 2 days ago [-]
If you haven’t seen it, Listers (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zl-wAqplQAo) provides a great glimpse into what competitive birdwatching looks like. It’s nothing like casual birdwatching.
JackMorgan 1 days ago [-]
I watched this is and it's such a great documentary. I really want to take a year now and try to get at least in the top 25% of birders for the year. I was into casual birding before (it's my favorite thing to do when traveling to a new place, just wander around the area and spot local birds). But now I'm loving the idea of these monthly or annual "competitions"
dstu 1 days ago [-]
I can’t recommend this documentary enough. The algorithm dropped it onto my YouTube homepage one day and I wasn’t expecting to watch more than a few minutes but I was drawn in immediately.
I don’t consider myself a birder but I’ve got into nature photography in recent years and it’s such a joy to get out for sunrise or sunset and to come home with a special shot.
onidj 1 days ago [-]
It's so good. Nature documentary made by a pair of endearing dirtbags.
albinn 1 days ago [-]
Absolute banger documentary, rewatched it last week with my SO!
semolino 1 days ago [-]
Great doc. Also recommend the classic Encounters: Twitchers (1996) as a spiritual precursor.
koziserek 1 days ago [-]
nice.
Still, competitive birdwatching sounds like competitive meditation :)
dmtroyer 1 days ago [-]
I won't spoil the ending for you, then.
Rapzid 1 days ago [-]
Really great.
ourmandave 1 days ago [-]
Does it count if I have a bird feeder with a movement detection camera that saves to the cloud 100's of terrible blurry images I look at once a never?
derwiki 1 days ago [-]
Because it’s always a house finch?
gnabgib 4 days ago [-]
> Together, these results suggest convergent structural remodeling and functional tuning in service of expert performance across the lifespan
Erik Wing, who led this research at Baycrest Academy for Research and Education in Toronto, Canada, compared MRI brain scans from bird experts to those of novices while they identified birds. He found that expert brains were wired differently in regions important for functions like attention, visual perception and visual recognition.
The study only (?) looked at the brains of birdwatchers, the paper extrapolates the study to make assertions about the brains of active subject experts in general.
jimnotgym 1 days ago [-]
"He found that expert brains were wired differently in regions important for functions like attention, visual perception and visual recognition."
Can we be sure that happened because of the bird watching, or did they reach expert level because their brain is wired differently?
aheckler 2 days ago [-]
Nominative determinism strikes again.
acadapter 2 days ago [-]
I agree, it would be interesting to see if there are some cognitive advantages associated with the "special interests" personality traits, in general.
1 days ago [-]
mkakkori 23 hours ago [-]
Just an anecdote about how birdwatching is also changing.
My 78-year-old father picked up birdwatching as a hobby this year. He has been a professional photographer for decades, but not a birder.
He takes really good photographs of birds, but then outsources the whole identification part to Claude. And Claude is a pretty good partner in the hobby, telling him what the identifying marks are and whether he needs a better picture next time.
Working with Claude didn't atrophy his spotting skills, it was more like having a good experienced partner. When I went on a birding trip with him and a goshawk flew by, he already knew what Claude had told him earlier about the identifying marks, and that's what he tried to capture better this time.
So maybe using AI to outsource some of the work doesn't take away all the brain rewiring part of birdwatching. At least not for him.
Havoc 2 days ago [-]
I guess in some ways its the opposite of doomscrolling - outdoors & requires patience for the dopamine payoff
asphodele 1 days ago [-]
There's the "always on" type of birdwatching as well, that allows you to recognize the birds you see and hear in the course of ordinary life. No patience required, just practising staying aware of peripheral vision and sounds, but equally rewarding when you are lucky enough to have a chance encounter.
haunter 4 days ago [-]
Then you watch The Birds (1963) and you wonder if are we birdwatching or are the birds watching?
NoahZuniga 2 days ago [-]
It's those darn spy pigeons watching back.
__rito__ 1 days ago [-]
I think, instead of 'Birdwatching', it could be any activity that required uninterrupted long time engagements, no immediate rewards, active involvement, slow progress, etc. Like cooking, painting, making films, writing, etc. You get the idea.
wateralien 1 days ago [-]
Bird interest will find you once you cross 40 whether you were into birds or not. It just happens.
jamiek88 21 hours ago [-]
Right? So fucking weird. Found myself filling s hummingbird feeder and befriending crows. Never even really thought about birds when I was younger.
nunez 24 hours ago [-]
Great article to remind people that birds are awesome and, generally, much more intelligent than people give them credit for. They are worth watching!
speckx 1 days ago [-]
While I don't have scientific or medical studies to back this up, I feel the same about people with aquariums or bird feeders who spend time watching them.
I have always had an aquarium in the house and bird feeders in the backyard. I'll stop and watch them while I eat or just need to disconnect. Better than staring at a screen.
I feel way better studying the fish in my little microcosm in my 120-gallon freshwater planted tank or looking out into my backyard at the menagerie of birds, chipmunks, and squirrels around the bird feeders.
yunruse 1 days ago [-]
This feels if nothing else quite analogous with default mode network, i.e. brain regions which are task-negative (or task-neutral).
It seems that the literature supports the intuition that to meaningfully relax (i.e. exercise the brain with fewer pressures of time, success or similar, and with a relatively low information bandwidth) is really good for cognitive health. And it's very good to destress, which we can all benefit from!
So even if there are more cars than birds outside my own window... I'll make sure to spend a few more moments each day by it :)
xacky 1 days ago [-]
Doing something that engages your brain in a unique way rewires your brain. I'm currently learning Astronomy and it is changing my thinking already. There are so many academic fields out there that each wires your brain in a unique way. We say were are in the age of AI but human intelligence needs to be studied even more than ever.
andy_ppp 1 days ago [-]
More likely socialising and long walks in nature slows cognitive decline - how do you control for this from the results to make the birdwatching part relevant?
onemoresoop 1 days ago [-]
Many hobbies do that for you. It’s important to engage with something that you like and use your brain. Also, part of the equation is to keep on moving. If you take daily walks and engage in a desk bound hobby it’ll likely provide similar benefits discussed here.
Anything that forces you to use your brain rewires the brain and slows cognitive decline, i'd think.
Anything that's not passive "content consumption" perhaps.
smugglerFlynn 1 days ago [-]
This "passive consumption" needs disambiguation, though.
What separates "I see colorful moving things" [watching birds] from "I see colorful moving things" [social media reels] is not the perceived passiveness but passiveness in the psychological sense.
Watching birds is active attention: you scan, predict, analyze. You get random, sparse rewards for it. Importantly, birdwatching is mostly nothing happening, which leaves room for your mind to wander - and wandering is the thing that's apparently really good for the brain.[1]
[1] - Moshe Bar, Mindwandering (2022), Michael Corballis, The Wandering Mind: What the Brain Does When You’re Not Looking (2015) and different related research papers
nottorp 1 days ago [-]
Hmm I don't do bird watching so I'm assuming it's not entirely passive, as in you need to sneak up on the birds to watch them. Even if sneaking is only coming in binoculars range.
If you sit on a chair on your porch and watch whatever birds happen to come by, it's still bird watching?
smugglerFlynn 1 days ago [-]
The study cited in the article was about people watching birds through a window
notorandit 1 days ago [-]
Any activity that makes your brain working actively helps fighting that decline: crosswords, sudoku, you name it.
As opposed to watching tv series or just doing nothing.
1-6 1 days ago [-]
I'd rather play golf instead of watching birds all day. I think the fundamentals of why it slows cognitive decline are similar.
a34729t 1 days ago [-]
Birdwatching as in chilling with your buddies nursing a scotch and getting away from the family and enjoying the outdoors?
speedping 1 days ago [-]
That explains why Raymond Holt was so sharp
johndear223 1 days ago [-]
Erik Wing done the research. Love that. I think theirs a name for that kind of coincidence.
Sounds to me that nature (and the animals) is the thing that slows cognitive decline and so on and so forth. Not birdwatching per se. (I didn't read the article, but having studied psychology, I am assuming with confidence that there is a confounding factor that makes it look like birdwatching is the _thing_ that slows cognitive decline.)
fwip 1 days ago [-]
You might want to read it, then.
1 days ago [-]
jackb4040 1 days ago [-]
How do we know this isn't just propaganda to force people to learn about the natural world, go outside, and make new friends?
vrighter 1 days ago [-]
doing anything slows cognitive decline. Using your pbrain is what slows it down. Not the specific thing you're doing. So does knitting, playing an instrument, and a lot of other things.
1Ecz3 1 days ago [-]
Title caught me but bbc.com lost me.
nntwozz 1 days ago [-]
Great, what about watching porn?
melvinroest 2 days ago [-]
I knew it! Those 30 and 40 somethings are always up to something. You never see them, never hear them, but here they are slowing their cognitive decline. They are clever little rascals. They're just like the species they're watching.
But I created a set of amazing binoculars with automatic AI age detection via radar for the small friendly price of 39.49$. Looking for a bird watcher? Get the SilentBirdWatchDectector 3000 and slow your cognitive decline at double the rate.
Don't watch the birds, watch the bird watchers instead. They may do something interesting.
(I'll see myself out...)
etcetcetcetceta 1 days ago [-]
look, look! A millenial father observing bird species in an effort to stave off cognitive decline, rarely seen away from his burrow and demanding offspring, we can see from its markings that this one was once a hipster, note the foliage pattern about it's left radiocarpal.
sleepybrett 1 days ago [-]
I imagine any similar hobby that is generally practiced outdoors, is not repetitive (knitting as an example), and requires acute use of your senses would be the same.
dudeinjapan 1 days ago [-]
Who watches the birdwatchers?
dyauspitr 1 days ago [-]
Is this relative to doing nothing and just watching TV during your retirement or do the controls include other active senior folk?
fortran77 1 days ago [-]
My cats do a lot of birdwatching. I wonder if it helps them?
HelloUsername 1 days ago [-]
r/ekekek
piokoch 1 days ago [-]
Key finding is:
"The findings don't prove whether structural brain differences are the cause or effect of birdwatching expertise."
Not a big surprise that this observation proves exactly nothing as there are thousands of other factors they could not control for (and apparently didn't want).
"Her team's findings have prompted German health insurance companies – who, among others, initially funded the research project – to invest in setting up bird feeders and viewing areas in more than 400 nursing homes across Bavaria. "
This is kind of hilarious and I would not believe that if it weren't Germany, a country that intentionally destroyed its nuclear plants capabilities in order to burn Russian gas and emit CO2. Obviously in the name of reducing CO2 emission.
IAmBroom 1 days ago [-]
From birdwatching/neural plasticity to environmentalism/anti-Russian sentiments.
Wow.
shadowtree 1 days ago [-]
By that logic, video/computer games should be great for prevention of cognitive decline too.
lukan 1 days ago [-]
In some ways they do, but actually going out into nature, smell different air, get aun on your skin, wind through your hair, see all around and not just a flickering screen and interface with reality with your whole body, not just eyes staring to a square and hands moving mouse and keyboard .. seems even more beneficial in activating the neurological system in the body.
badpun 1 days ago [-]
They probably are, but only if you try new games, new maps, new strategies constantly - anything to get your brain plasticity working. Killing monsters in Diablo for 10 years in a row probably hastens the decline if anything.
Razengan 1 days ago [-]
Birds are awesome, make the world more pleasant, are the best wakeup alarm, but they can be cruel motherfuckers.
Don't watch YouTube videos of birds eating their babies, baby birds killing their siblings, or just eating random animals including other birds.
james45 1 days ago [-]
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Rodmine 1 days ago [-]
You have to be a total imbecile to think that we are capable of collecting enough data to make such conclusions.
Or are the hiking, breathing in fresh air, the eyes seeing natural sunlight etc critical to the effects?
So if I swapped the birdwatching with watching horses run or pigs fornicate with everything else being the same (hiking, breathing in fresh air, the eyes seeing natural sunlight etc), I would enjoy the exact same benefits the article claims birdwatching results in?
https://www.jneurosci.org/content/46/12/e1307252026
It's why there's so much distrust of science globally. We've cured cancer! Except we haven't, it was mouse studies. Except we have! Except not really, that drug failed it's first clinical trial. Except we have! Except that's just mechanistic reasoning not proven by any observational studies.
So then people think, wow, these scientists have no idea what they're doing and just make stuff up all the time to get attention. Which they aren't - most peer-reviewed studies include a mountain of caveats and I've rarely seen, even in large meta-analyses and Cochrane Reviews, papers that make half as strong a claim as ad-revenue obsessed news editors do with their hyperbolic headlines.
That's good science journalism imo
Those activities typically don't require observation and inference. A big part of birdwatching is identifying small, fast-moving animals that exhibit specific combinations of behaviors at specific times of the year based on specific climatic conditions. That sort of rapidfire pattern matching from video and audio info is probably a big contributor to what keeps the brain sharp.
So VR birdwatching works, or no?
Remember, if VR birdwatching works, then you can now watch small, fast-moving animals that exhibit specific combinations of behaviors at any time of the year from the comfort of your couch and thus, the benefits of birdwatching can be enjoyed by a much larger population.
And it is a classic for folks with limited mobility:
https://www.nytimes.com/wirecutter/blog/birding-window-get-s...
There's a reason why it has a reputation as a great retiree hobby - it's "go sit on a bench and pay attention" not "first, purchase a mountain bike of adequate spec...".
The person in that article saw ten species in two months? This doesn't sound like a situation where your activity is listed as "birdwatching", it sounds like you spend a minute on it every once in a while.
And if I consider binoculars and a feeder, that's on the same price tier as VR.
Some parts of birdwatching could be Virtual - watching a feeder somewhere (anywhere) waiting for birds to come in and watch what they do - or watching different trees/plants at different points in the year attracting different birds exhibiting different behaviours (eg. I have a love of seeing Tui[NZ] when Taiwanese Cherry or Kowhai are in flower, they gather in the tree at different times of the day when the nectar is at its peak, there are fights for dominance between the birds, there's a racket as they all feast, then boom, as quickly as they arrive they're gone again, off to the next tree)
The couple of times we've gone with guides who are serious birdwatchers, it is impressive to watch their abilities in this area of multimodal species identification (and male/female/adult/juvenile) in challenging visual and audio environments (and recall of species names in Latin, English, and Spanish).
Meanwhile I'm out there with my camera like "Hey, look at that beautiful red+blue bird!" ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
They have access to the same information as the rest of us (sight, sound, general awareness of season and habitat) but their inference is so amazingly fast and accurate.
The bird feeder attracted way to many mice and rats. I wish I didn’t have to take it down.
We want to know what it is in birdwatching that registers as beneficial because if the factor(s) are distinct and isolated then the same benefits can be scaled outside of birdwatching.
And if you just went birdwatching because they said so, you wouldn't know why it might be beneficial to you. Or maybe there's a factor that wasn't identified separately and birdwatching itself doesn't improve your cognitive capabilities while, for many others, it supposedly does.
You would want to know you're getting benefits from whatever you decide to do if you're doing it in order to gain those benefits.
> A big part of birdwatching is identifying small, fast-moving animals that exhibit specific combinations of behaviors at specific times of the year based on specific climatic conditions. That sort of rapidfire pattern matching from video and audio info is probably a big contributor to what keeps the brain sharp.
It takes time and experience to build up your identification skills but it’s really rewarding and exciting and modern tech makes it easier than ever to learn
Birdwatching includes looking at top trees searching for birds. Looking at complex fractal-like accumulations of branches and leaves. Also following sounds and identifying their source. The brain was designed for this task.
A screen does not seem a substituted for such a incredible rich experience. Screens are a flat low-resolution, low fidelity view of reality. And no brain has evolved to watch at them. It can actually be quite tiresome to look at screens all day, as so many things about them go against how our eyes and brains work.
It's very entertaining for me, but I don't do it to him very often lest he become miswired.
The average CounterStrike player, for example, is scanning complex structures trying to identify an enemy, listening to sounds and trying to follow the source...etc. Why would the screen get in the way in one case but not the other?
As sister comments point out, this could be reproduced with a lot more technology (VR with high precision controllers ?), which could bring it on par with playing Counter Strike in some ways perhaps ?
To expand on bird watching, people usually don't mindlessly choose a wood cabin and just sit there. They'll know which bird should be where depending on the season, where they tend to hide depending on the time of the day, their bird calls etc. and eventually trek to wherever the birds will be. It's also not so far from fishing.
Seems like we're all generally in agreement, then. Probably nothing to do with the literal act of seeing birds, but all of the cognitive work that goes into it. Birdwatching is just an easy-to-digest hobby that demands the right sorts of cognitive activity. This can be akin to a 'Bird Spotting: the Video-game' with whatever flavor and skin, be it a shooter or racing sim or sports game.... but does not seem to cross over into 'TikTok' style less-cognitive activities behind a screen
In other words, if its shown that people who eat jawbreakers have good teeth, is it possible that the underlying reason for it is you simply cannot eat jawbreakers with dentures?
> According to a small brain-imaging study published in 2000, London cab drivers had unusually large hippocampi. This part of the brain also happens to degrade in people with Alzheimer’s disease.
[...]
> Interestingly, taxi drivers are not known for stellar health outcomes, Jena says. They typically have higher mortality rates compared with people in other occupations, making their very low Alzheimer’s rates especially remarkable. The researchers wondered if taxi drivers experience other factors that protect them against dementia more generally. In that case, the researchers would expect cab and ambulance drivers to be similarly protected from other types of dementia as well. But their analysis showed these drivers had ordinary rates of vascular dementia, which does not involve the hippocampus.
> And the very low incidence of Alzheimer’s disease did not manifest among drivers of other modes of transportation, which involve “fewer navigational demands.” Another brain-imaging study of long-time London bus drivers found that they do not have enlarged hippocampi. Scientists suspect that this is because “bus drivers are driving predetermined routes,” says Jena. “It’s not this on-the-fly navigational memory that taxi drivers are required to possess.” He and his colleagues found that pilots and ship captains also exhibited typical rates of Alzheimer’s mortality.
https://www.harvardmagazine.com/2025/05/harvard-taxi-drivers...
Birdwatching is basically elderly James Bond. Who knows what undercover mysteries grandma and grandpa are secretly discovering
"The extensive training required to achieve domain-specific expertise modifies the brain. Changes in brain structure have been found in domains including music, athletics, and navigation. Training also alters brain activity."
Meanwhile most people just do the traditional thing
If a article headlines saying "People who wake up early live 20 years longer than people who sleep in", and then it turns out it wasn't the act of waking up early at all, rather, early risers then went out for a run or a swim and people who slept in but did the same actually lived even longer than those early risers, it's important to know that.
Also, in America, the kind of people who have a glass of wine a day (but not more) strongly correlate with those who can afford healthcare.
Similar for mediterranean diets. Turns out it’s the universal healthcare available in all the mediterranean countries both on the european and the african sides.
Of course, the root cause being people who are unfit, sick or elderly cannot literally make it up a flight of stairs.
but if people aren't paying attention, like the vast majority of population dont, you'll suddenly have an explosion of condos that start from the 5th floor with the first 4 floors turned into something else.
and all of them have lifts!
There are a few reasons why this is false, my favorite one is, they didn't control for alcoholics who stopped drinking and thus reported as non-drinkers. So the group of completely sober ones had people with liver damage etc. while those with only moderate drinkers had barely any heavy-drinkers in it.
Like, if you have a baseline cognitive decline of 25% in 10 years, and you instead spend 2 of those 10 years (total time spent) watching birds to go from 25% to 20% reduction in cognitive decline, you haven't really slowed your cognitive decline, you've just effectively paused it during the time you were watching birds.
The same way we got gyms when people realized physical inactivity is super unhealthy.
The corvids looking back wondering what you're doing and they'll communicate back too.
I think becoming a person who would stop and do that, or go birdwatch in general, is probably the important part.
That said, collecting plants or beetles is probably equally beneficial. Geocaching comes to mind too.
Although, I wonder if looking up may contribute, given old people tend deform and bend forward with age. Could affect blood or lymphatic circulation.
It works with whatever political direction you lean on, which stance you have on two or more genders, which religion you love or hate, which gaming platform you prefer, how old you are and many more "divide and conquer"-topics.
It'll be difficult to replace because it's so effective already...
That's what the person you responded to was saying.
Probably shouldn't be having those Kenyans (Kalenjin) competing in marathons either. Completely unfair advantage.
All models are wrong, some are useful.
NB I'm 61 and recently started developing something almost entirely for the mental workout if provides
Edit: I also wanted to use HTMX so I could become CEO one day
Eschewing eating ultraprocessed, factory-made food is now seen as a deliberate health choice, even though it used to be the default. I think the same is happening with the brain.
Reading a book is now seen as some erudite choice. Having a hobby like knitting, birdwatching, etc. will be some kind of "good for your brain" activity. Things that used to be the only option are now "healthy choices".
Jokes aside, there is a very definite difference in how my brain "feels" when I'm walking around, camera in hand, looking for things to photograph. It's like I'm in a different "cognitive mode", for the lack of a better term. It's not just about being present and in the moment, but about seeing the world around you from a different perspective.
0. https://drive.google.com/file/d/1tnMlazV0g1syoRPLALJ6576YSYQ...
* probably one of the less bad things you can do on a screen, since it predates the everything-for-attention era
Obviously being out in nature has other mental health benefits. The key thing is to keep learning and stay curious. Drive to some new nearby town on a weekend and learn about its history. Learn a new hobby like full f-stop photography or learn how to bake or cook (learn all four base sauces). Take up board games and explore all the different kinds of experiences they provide today.
Where 'X' is almost anything that humans evolved to do in hunter gatherer nomadic tribal groups.
In other news, sky is blue.
and done by top 1 percent of the world
my spouse and I (30s) had no problem sitting through the new Spider-Man movie without opening up our phones.
We live in India, so for example, the rise of online (and offline) hatred towards us has definitely had an impact.
A lot of, "birdwatchers" I see travelling to remote parts of Scotland and other places in the UK are generally wealthy retirees, with nice kit (Rab clothing, telephoto lenses, VW campervans).
Cognitive decline is shown to impact disproportionately on less wealthy people. So is there a trend with economic wealth and outdoor hobbies like birdwatching? I'd hazard a yes.
On a side note, the Merlin bird ID app from Cornell University is great.
They basically installed a bunch of bird feeders outside nursing homes to see if watching birds improves the health of the elderly people. The researchers concluded that it did:
It seems that they used the following bird feeder in their study:https://www.lbv.de/umweltbildung/fuer-seniorenheime/ausstatt...
My apartment has a great view on nature. I see the sunrises and the sunsets, swallows racing across the evening sky, a chestnut's whole cycle, and all that lives in my balcony garden.
I cannot overstate how much it does for my happiness. I love the morning routine of caring for my garden. I love to watch things grow and seasons change.
I think our caveman brains need this sort of thing.
Birdwatching can still be enjoyed in most places without needing to travel far. Birds are less active in bad weather so you don’t need expensive outdoor gear, and in many places there will be freely accessible nature reserves with hides in which one can sit in shelter to watch birds.
The highest quality glass is going to get pretty expensive (camera lenses can get to the region of $20k; binoculars $4k or so) but there are also much cheaper options and often these can be quite reasonable: you don’t need to take photos of birds; a superzoom point-and-shoot can work great; more expensive binoculars make a bigger difference in low light and if you’re young (older people’s pupils won’t dilate as much so bigger objectives at a lower magnification won’t be a huge help).
I feel like mostly you’re observing that rich people spend lots of money on their hobbies and not that opening your eyes to look at birds is some expensive exclusionary activity.
M43 systems are also excellent for bird watching given the 2x crop factor, and diminutive size of lenses verses larger sensors. Older M43 camera bodies are incredibly cheap versus new equipment. M43 combined with modern LLM-based denoisers means that even low-light photos with higher ISO really can end up looking incredibly good.
No need to go far or spend a lot of money.
Something I learned from I-forget-where: if you hear an interesting bird call, close your eyes, look up and point your nose to the source of the sound. Open your eyes, and, surprise, it's probably a Northern Cardinal, Mockingbird or some kind of thrush! lol
Do you know how it compares to iNaturalist? I'm not a birdwatcher, but I have iNat on my phone and sometimes use it to identify birds, and it seems to do a great job.
Perhaps we need to provide opportunities for less well off people to access nature? It might have a positive cost-benefit. And design care homes around gardens? 'forest bathing' is apparently often recommended in Japan based on studies of blood pressure and other physical indicators.
Munlochy: if you ever saw a geezer wearing an ex-army parka, builders safety boots with Opticron bins it might have been me. I don't get up there often enough to warrant the pricey stuff.
The critical thing is that these people need a hand to get out of the house or do any kind of activity. And I think that's partially behind a lot of ailments that affect the elderly, they don't go out, don't get physically, mentally or sensorily stimulated enough so they atrophy in all those areas. On top of age related conditions like senility, parkinsons, altzheimer's, etc of course.
All animals die, and dying from a clean rifle shot is preferable to 99.9% of the ways animals will die in the wild.
Regulations like bag limits and license lotteries prevent over-hunting, and in many situations (like the wild boars in Italy) hunting is an ecologically positive activity, as it reduces populations that would otherwise explode and destroy its own ecosystem.
But you said it yourself, that's not the point. So why talk about it up at all?
Like, OP could have skipped that tidbit of backstory, but there's no harm done in including it. While you could have skipped this entire reply, which pushes (your/an) idea and a specific view of the world.
And yea, I could have skipped mine too. But... that's not the point, lol.
Everyone can see birds around their home or work. Getting started can be as simple as noticing which birds you see regularly and figuring out what kind they are, and how the males and females differ in appearance (or don't). Usually males are the prettier more colorful ones, which is an effective signal for fitness.
Common birds will be easy to identify. Figuring out unusual birds or behaviors can turn into quite the detective project.
From there you can start to recognize calls and behavioral patterns. Once you learn a little bit in those areas it can be like seeing in another dimension. It's neat to hear a particular call and immediately know that there is a hawk in a nearby tree, or a cat behind a car.
The challenge however is, is it that those who engage in such hobbies have decline slowed. Or are they able to engage in those hobbies due to not declining.
It's not possible to answer clearly without some randomisation and control which is basically impossible.
Still, it's reasonable inference that hobbies and work maintain cognitive capabilities.
It seems also just enough to say supporting people to have a hobby if they're at risk of dementia and don't have one is important to meeting their social and health needs.
I might be being too cynical. I wonder if there is some funding arguments, I.e. if it's for their health and insurer may fund it.
If it's for their social/cultural and general wellbeing it might be out of their remit somewhat.
> Maybe by comparing the comparative cognitive of twins, one of whom has a hobby and the other doesn’t?
I don't see how that would help in this case?
But generally speaking, hobbies are good. That said, I wonder why video games don't seem to be more popular as post-retirement hobbies.
Also, speaking as someone approaching retirement age, sensory overload isn’t particularly enjoyable.
I think it's a generational thing. Video games were fully entrenched as part of culture starting late gen x/early millennial. I expect to see elder gaming being a thing in the years to come.
It really is a very different cognitive mode. And when LLMs later came out I took my birdwatching-stance into it, which felt like a natural way to encounter some new entities.
I find it easy to believe that birdwatching is fairly distinctive in how it organizes the brain. Many sibling comments were wondering “is it the bird watching or is it an isolatable factor.” Bird watching is an extremely distinctive sensory integration, prediction, classification, etc task with lots of subproblems yes but also binding them in an irreducible way with agency detection (a vital part of cognition that modern environments are impoverished of) and attention.
I don’t consider myself a birder but I’ve got into nature photography in recent years and it’s such a joy to get out for sunrise or sunset and to come home with a special shot.
Is a long leap from this article's title. Paper:
https://www.jneurosci.org/content/46/12/e1307252026
Can we be sure that happened because of the bird watching, or did they reach expert level because their brain is wired differently?
My 78-year-old father picked up birdwatching as a hobby this year. He has been a professional photographer for decades, but not a birder.
He takes really good photographs of birds, but then outsources the whole identification part to Claude. And Claude is a pretty good partner in the hobby, telling him what the identifying marks are and whether he needs a better picture next time.
Working with Claude didn't atrophy his spotting skills, it was more like having a good experienced partner. When I went on a birding trip with him and a goshawk flew by, he already knew what Claude had told him earlier about the identifying marks, and that's what he tried to capture better this time.
So maybe using AI to outsource some of the work doesn't take away all the brain rewiring part of birdwatching. At least not for him.
I have always had an aquarium in the house and bird feeders in the backyard. I'll stop and watch them while I eat or just need to disconnect. Better than staring at a screen.
I feel way better studying the fish in my little microcosm in my 120-gallon freshwater planted tank or looking out into my backyard at the menagerie of birds, chipmunks, and squirrels around the bird feeders.
It seems that the literature supports the intuition that to meaningfully relax (i.e. exercise the brain with fewer pressures of time, success or similar, and with a relatively low information bandwidth) is really good for cognitive health. And it's very good to destress, which we can all benefit from!
So even if there are more cars than birds outside my own window... I'll make sure to spend a few more moments each day by it :)
https://news.ycombinator.com/item?id=50053384
Anything that's not passive "content consumption" perhaps.
What separates "I see colorful moving things" [watching birds] from "I see colorful moving things" [social media reels] is not the perceived passiveness but passiveness in the psychological sense.
Watching birds is active attention: you scan, predict, analyze. You get random, sparse rewards for it. Importantly, birdwatching is mostly nothing happening, which leaves room for your mind to wander - and wandering is the thing that's apparently really good for the brain.[1]
[1] - Moshe Bar, Mindwandering (2022), Michael Corballis, The Wandering Mind: What the Brain Does When You’re Not Looking (2015) and different related research papers
If you sit on a chair on your porch and watch whatever birds happen to come by, it's still bird watching?
As opposed to watching tv series or just doing nothing.
But I created a set of amazing binoculars with automatic AI age detection via radar for the small friendly price of 39.49$. Looking for a bird watcher? Get the SilentBirdWatchDectector 3000 and slow your cognitive decline at double the rate.
Don't watch the birds, watch the bird watchers instead. They may do something interesting.
(I'll see myself out...)
"The findings don't prove whether structural brain differences are the cause or effect of birdwatching expertise."
Not a big surprise that this observation proves exactly nothing as there are thousands of other factors they could not control for (and apparently didn't want).
"Her team's findings have prompted German health insurance companies – who, among others, initially funded the research project – to invest in setting up bird feeders and viewing areas in more than 400 nursing homes across Bavaria. "
This is kind of hilarious and I would not believe that if it weren't Germany, a country that intentionally destroyed its nuclear plants capabilities in order to burn Russian gas and emit CO2. Obviously in the name of reducing CO2 emission.
Wow.
Don't watch YouTube videos of birds eating their babies, baby birds killing their siblings, or just eating random animals including other birds.